Navigating Loneliness In Motherhood || Insights from Parenting Coach, Vanessa Coultas

Foreign.

Hello and welcome to this week's Real.

Life Real Kitchen podcast.

I have decided to put up a fantastic little chat I had with parenting coach Vanessa Coultas on Zoom before this podcast even began.

Vanessa is also a podcast host on the Coffee and Courage podcast.

All details are below in the show notes so you can keep in touch with Vanessa.

And the main topic of this conversation was all about loneliness in motherhood, which is something that afflicts so many mothers today at all stages of motherhood, be it postpartum, be it children going to school, women starting work.

So Vanessa and I have a big.

Old chat about this particular modern affliction and put forward some solutions.

So I really hope you enjoy listening to this and do like, share and subscribe.

Let's get the word out to as many mums as possible and do forward this on to any mum you think might benefit from this chat.

Okay?

Enjoy.

Now, for those who'll be watching the recording, this is the wonderful Vanessa Kultas, who is a parenting coach.

Is that a fair description?

Yeah, yeah.

Parenting coach who normally lives in New Zealand, but has come back, come back briefly to the land of her birthday,.

And you feel like I'm really hot.

Yeah, it's beautiful.

It's beautiful.

I was just starting off and talking about kind of the epidemic of loneliness amongst mums, particularly when they've just had their first baby.

So I'm sort of starting off on that and, you know, come in with your thoughts and things, because my observation and a lot of Facebook groups and also conversations you just have out and about is that so many of these mums are lonely.

And my theory is, as women, we work on relationships and community, and when we're at work, that's where our energies happen.

But then when you have a baby, you leave work, everybody continues with the 9 to 5, and then you are with the baby on your own, going crackers, often without the family around.

And I think a lot of women feel it's their fault.

I think there's actually an interesting kind of guilt that comes with it without realizing that they didn't have the framework to begin with.

What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, it's, you know, such a.

It's a really good topic, actually.

I'm so glad that I.

This was the week that I could come an article on loneliness many years ago, because I suffered and so I looked into it quite a lot.

But you're right, it's such a shift.

So I've actually started, well, as you know, a podcast with another coach and it's something.

Something we've looked at is like an identity shift.

You have a baby and you're suddenly a different person in terms of, you know, now you're a mum or a mom and a working person.

But whichever way you have changed your identity and there's a lot of other changes that have to go with that and.

And picked on one.

It's the whole.

How do we get that social and that connection, which is absolutely vital for us.

Yeah.

And how do we get.

Especially in the first months of.

When you've just had a baby and everything's very different and hazy and so,.

Yeah, everything's very squishy.

Weepy and squishy and it's all squirty and everything's just all a mess.

Yeah, it's hard.

It's really hard.

I actually had a real struggle when I had my daughter.

She was two and a half.

We moved to Australia and I had a real period of loneliness there.

And it was interesting.

I remember listening to a podcast, I think it was on Radio 4 or something, where they were describing postnatal depression.

And I went, I tick every box.

Even though I've got a two and a half year old, I tick every box.

And I thought, wow, what if postnatal depression, yes.

Obviously there's going to be hormonal elements for some people, there's going to be trauma for other people.

But what if a lot of the postnatal depression is actually.

There isn't that support network and it's a deep, deep loneliness that's afflicting these poor women.

It's got to be a huge part of it, as you say, regardless of hormones and everything else.

Loneliness.

I mean, I'm actually pleased that they've kind of.

It's been highlighted from COVID about the detrimental effects of loneliness, you know, with research saying it kills more than smoking does.

Because we are, you know, we're humans and we are social creatures and I don't think we realize that, you know, enough.

We.

I think, because it's quite hard, you know, like, the older you get, you put it more in the.

The too hard basket.

Making friends and connecting, it can be hard.

So I think.

And I. I've spoken to some mums.

I remember one in particular in London.

She just moved there and, you know, she was struggling.

I said, just go and meet people.

They don't have to become your new best friend.

No, go find some mum groups.

Because it's kind of, yeah, you don't want your life to be all about baby, but A big part is.

So that's your easiest target group.

Go and find some mum groups.

At least you're getting out there.

They're not thoroughly, as I say, going to become your new, you know, best friends, but there's still people to talk to and share your experiences with who can tell you you're not mad.

No.

Every mom's feeling this, you know, squirtiness.

Perfectly normal.

Perfectly normal.

So, yes, everything though, everything's perfectly normal.

Maybe that's the point.

Yeah.

And like you said, putting pressure on ourselves and a lot of it's coming from us and then you start wondering, is it me?

It's like, actually, you know what, everything that all of us is going through, yes, it might not be desirable, but it's all perfectly normal.

Yeah, yeah, this is.

This has happened once or twice before, but yeah, yeah, but it is the profound loneliness that is really interesting.

I want to also pick up on this going out and meeting other, going to mums groups and things like that.

And again in some of these, because that's been my sort of natural inclination to do as well, is like, off we go, come on.

Or to the playground.

And I would meet mums in the playground and I used to call them my playground pickups because you'd often see the similar mums at the playground at the same time.

So after school drop off or just before school pickup kind of things.

And I remember there was one mom I knew and she was actually a friend from before we had children and she went back to work really quickly.

It was like six months after her baby was born.

In Australia you get, I think, up to a year maternity leave.

She went back to work after six months and I remember talking to her about it and at first she's like, oh, my career's really important, it's this, it's that.

But then it became quite clear she was deeply, deeply lonely.

And I said, you've got a playground just there.

Did you not meet anyone?

And she said, well, I'd go at 7 o' clock in the morning and nobody was there, so I'm going.

So this poor lady, she'd been going to the playground, granted, when it's a bit cooler in the day, but of course she wasn't meeting anyone because nobody takes their children really to the playground at that time of the morning.

So it's these kind of timing things.

But later I was reflecting on, I thought, you know, what if she had been taking her little one to the local cafe or the local bakery at 7 o' clock in the Morning.

Although you're not necessarily meeting other mums at the same level, it's the regularity.

You become a regular.

You get chatting with the people making the coffee.

There are some similar.

People will be there at the same time and it might even just be a case of kind of turning around and saying, you're just a wave.

You see the same faces and then you start the gentle conversations then.

And you've got a baby.

Everybody loves a baby or most people love a baby.

So that's also a really good entryway into it if the kind of.

The prospect of a mum's group is too much.

So, yeah, yeah.

Have you got any other tips with your experiences of supporting the mums?

Thinking it's hardest if you're an introvert.

You know, if you're someone who goes to the cafe and you don't talk to people and like you say, having a baby is sometimes like having a dog.

People come up to you, so you rely on the extroverts.

Yeah.

But loneliness is really.

It's that you don't need many people in your life.

So it's not a numbers thing.

It's about finding a few people to truly connect, so they're connecting at a deeper level, not the surface level.

Admittedly, it starts at the surface level.

Yeah.

Also about.

So we're talking about our core needs here.

Yeah.

Or need is a belonging.

And even by going to the cafe regular, you do start a little belonging.

You know, it's like it's my cafe that I go to with those people.

I would.

I'm trying to think what I wrote in my article on loneliness because a lot of people don't understand it.

And so talking to people, if you say you're lonely, a lot of people don't understand because they will say, follow your hobbies, go and join a group, go and read a book.

And it's not about that, it is about getting a deeper connection.

You do have to play a numbers game, so don't get disheartened, don't think, oh, well, you know, I really like yoga, so I'll go to yoga and then there'll be all these other things, people doing yoga, and then I'll feel connected and I'll have friends.

It's not really going to work like that in the real world.

No, no, no, no, it isn't.

And I think it's also, I think as women as well, we sometimes take it as a personal, personal affront.

Or again, there's the blame.

Why are they not my friends?

What's wrong with me.

Yep.

I mean I've had a sort of freeing conversations in the past year or so actually to be honest.

To do with marketing and my website and the business which was you don't have to appeal to all the people and if they're not your person, walk on by, it's okay, they'll find their people and it makes space and energy for you to find your people.

And I remember going, oh yes.

Well I add onto that if everybody likes you then you're doing it wrong and you're a people pleaser and you're not being yourself.

So you want not everybody to like you.

Yeah, yeah.

Yourself.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's absolutely okay if they are not your people.

You only need five people.

So there's a lot of people out there, just as you say, move on by,.

Wish them well.

And five people.

Let's work that out.

That's kind of a coffee every day.

That's enough of variety of conversations from Monday to Friday when everybody else is at work for you to not be going crackers.

I actually set it up so I moved to a new place.

It was about eight years ago and that's when I had my, that's when I was, you know, in, in the depths of my loneliness.

I was like, right, we have to fix this.

So I set it up, I worked out what I needed.

I set myself a target to book in.

Say I can't remember the numbers so I'm making up a little bit 3:1 on ones per week.

Then I had to allow for cancellations because life cancel.

So from that point of view you're better off arranging as well some group activities.

Yeah, I joined a book club and things like that because then it's not going to get cancelled on you.

So then I, yeah say I put in three group things per week and, and you're working work on a monthly basis so that you don't have to kind of make the same friend meet you every Tuesday, have, have a different, you know, have a few different ones and they can be very tenuous connections to start when, when you're starting it.

I was always almost making it up because I didn't have the people.

Yeah, but you by doing that you're getting that kind of initial opportunity for connection and you start building it up from there.

So yeah, I literally set it up.

It was a numbers thing.

I need to book in and weekends were my worst.

Being a single parent.

Yeah, everybody disappeared at the weekend so I literally had to plan my weekends and put things in.

I Do now.

But back then I literally had to make sure I was arranging things for myself at the weekends.

Yep.

And was that because you're a widow?

That's correct, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah.

So with your weekend and then with the move, was that with the children as well?

I still had two children.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

When, when you've got younger children, you are coming across parents because, you know, you start going to, you know, playgroups and school thing.

When your children are getting a little bit older and they're more independent or you just at school because they don't need you to go in, that's when things start to shift because you're not actually accidentally speaking to other mums so you're less likely to just happen across upon them.

So you have got to.

It's like you've got to put yourself out there.

I say it's quite.

Introverts.

So all empathy for any introverts out there who are struggling.

It's.

No, this is a perfect conversation because I actually had a text from a friend saying I'm really interested in the loneliness topic.

She couldn't make it today, but I was reflecting going, she's at a stage where her kids are a little bit older.

And I thought, okay, so this is interesting.

We do need to be talking about the loneliness of the moms with the, with the older, with the older kids.

And it makes me think a bit like if you're looking for a fella, you're like, it's time.

I'm going to see if I can find a fella, someone suitable.

And you do get out there.

You do need to make that effort.

You do need to, yeah, just go to the groups and all of this.

I remember my mother saying when she moved from her, her original town to a bigger city in the country she came from, she was again, it was like, I'm going to volleyball.

I don't like volleyball, but I shall go to volleyball.

I'm going to go to whatever sport it was.

I don't like it, but I'm going to go.

And she just, again, just tried everything until she found a couple, you know, that handful of people she was working as well.

So she found a couple of kindred spirits of work and then spread out into her.

Into her weekends and social life there.

But for the introverts, it's really, it's still something that we, because I have that inclination myself to kind of go into hermit mode.

It is something we have to work on.

I remember hearing an interview with a lady who She's a homeschooler, she's got seven children over in Canada.

And she was talking about you have these medieval temperaments.

So the choleric, which is kind of strong opinionated, the phlegmatic, where they're literally in the moment, not much thinking, much reflection.

So actually quite a beautiful state to be in.

The sanguine, who are like, extrovert.

The people are here, amazing.

And then you've got the melancholic, who is just like, nobody talk to me.

I'm hiding in my hermitage.

And people can be mixtures of all sorts.

And she reflected on the fact that her natural inclination is this sanguine and phlegmatic.

So again, in the moment, joyfully in the moment with the people, loves the energy.

But she realized that in terms of just Catholic lady, in terms of her kind of prayer life and spiritual discipline, although she was really drawn to all the kind of hoopla, Hallelujah.

She actually really needed to work hard on the contemplative side of herself.

She knew that that was a gap and it would be hard, but that was something she needed to do in order to reap greater spiritual rewards and personality, discipline, growth.

And again, that's always stuck with me.

And coming back to the introverts, sometimes you just gotta get out there.

Maybe you're hanging out the library instead of the cafe, but still you might be chatting with the librarians, you might be chatting with the people who like the books.

But yeah, it's hard.

It is a case of still getting out there.

So a little bit of get out of your comfort zone.

And there was something I wanted to bring up.

What did you say?

Something you just mentioned that I wanted to.

I've lost that for the minute.

It'll come.

It'll come.

Yeah.

There was something I was going to say.

Yeah.

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What do you think?

Because I'm thinking of these women who actually are.

Because sometimes you have the emotional capacity to do that, to push yourself, and other times there is a fragility that means you really would struggle or you can't quite face it.

Have you got any thoughts on what to do in those situations?

Yeah, I know.

That's what I was going to say.

So that going into hermit mode.

Yeah, I have a friend who definitely does that.

So if she stops Responding to me.

Yeah.

Leave her.

Yeah.

I'm a real pain.

But that's because I know and she knows.

But I was definitely a hermit and you're in your, your own worst enemy and maybe you've got to catch yourself in advance.

So if you've already in hermit mode, you've missed this.

But next time, you know, start to notice when you're retreating and closing.

Yeah.

Maybe have some go to's, maybe have a list that when you're in that some ones that are easy.

Like I think the cafe can be an easy one.

It's not, it's not as I say, it's not a full on connecting.

Yeah.

But it's keeping you out there.

Yeah.

But you're still safe because you don't have to really communicate with people.

But you might have the thing because once you start retreating then you're isolating yourself and it's the isolation that's the problem.

Yeah.

And that, that's, that's actually the big tip, isn't it?

From there's that solitude.

Fine.

And then the loneliness and then the isolation.

Yeah.

That's when there's, there's real struggle for the mom and then obviously has impacts on the children as well.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah.

And I'm just thinking maybe now in this day and age with, with video calls, you can still be kind of a little bit hermited at home and do a video call with someone might be something you can put in place.

Like do you have a distant friend who when you start to retreat, you know, maybe even lock it in as a monthly call and don't allow, cancel because you're feeling a bit low.

Yeah.

And then other thing, people you can be real with, you don't.

Because, you know, like you don't, you don't want to phone that friend because you're not in that bubbly mode and they might see you and think you're, you're, you're judging yourself here.

I get it.

They might think that you're very miserable and depressed, you know, and that's your.

How they'll think you are.

But if you've put that, preempt it and put it in place and that you're a friend, that you're okay to, to actually say be real and so struggling right now.

Yeah, people love that.

And also they do, they really do.

It's.

And I think this is another thing because of society today, it's like, I can do this.

I am strong on my own.

Yes.

But actually, yeah, people do want to help People do what?

I mean, sometimes it's the help they want to give, not necessarily help you need, but people do, do want to help.

And I think actually this.

This point about having like a zoom conversation or a video call, that's really good because if you are geographically separate from old friends, family, you can have that instant connection straight away.

You don't have to muck about with the small talk.

It's just straight in there and that.

Yes, the small talk, the smiling sweetly and all of that, but yes, you can leap straight in, which is just fantastic.

Well, now you've brought up another really good point.

A lot of people don't understand small talk, so they say, I hate small talk.

So they don't like networking or whatever.

Look, everybody hates small talk.

But once you understand what it's about, you actually can do it pretty quickly.

And not so small talk, really what it's about is finding a connection.

And what we do is we start really broad.

So in England, we always talk about the weather.

Yes, everybody understands the weather.

But don't stay on the weather.

Move quickly and find connections.

That's all the small talk is about, is to find connections.

Because if you talk enough, you'll always find a connection with someone.

But we don't like the small talk, so we need to chunk through it really, really quickly.

Weather.

It's like I started taking my dog to the dog park.

I hated it.

They all just want to talk about dogs.

I'm like, let's say hello, my dog's name, and then move on.

Yeah, they're stuck on dog talk.

So I just.

I don't go anymore.

So you can help yourself here and you can practice this.

Yes, the weather.

And then chunk really quickly.

And it might be, where are you from?

Yeah, start to find.

Or you talk about, I don't know, a hobby of yours.

Oh, I'm playing tennis later if they don't pick up on that.

Not a sporty person.

Yeah, talk about the latest book you read or some new listen to, but literally do it as quickly as you can because nobody wants to endure the small.

No, no, no.

And it's so true.

It's so true.

It's that I hadn't even realized I was doing that.

It's that points of connection quickly.

I mean, with me, one of the things I often do is.

And it's.

It's wonderfully shallow, but everybody loves it.

It's like that dress you're wearing is stunning.

Where did you get that lipstick from?

Your daughter looks beautiful.

Where is the dress from?

Yeah.

And that begins because people immediately feel lifted.

I mean, don't say if they look awful, because that's just being disingenuous.

Yes.

But genuinely, you're like, this person has made a beautiful effort.

The color looks lovely.

You're looking for the positive.

And you start often talking about.

And this is an interesting one, I find I will talk to people about, what do you do?

I put on my queen's voice.

What do you do?

And then they start talking about the jobs or what did you do before the babies.

And that's often a way of kind of making connections, actually, because you can sort of, oh, so you do this.

You work for this company.

What do you do in that company?

What is it that you bring it down and down and down.

But often the asking of questions opens people up.

So you have touched on a very important point.

And this is what I do with life coaching.

It's all about being curious and asking questions.

And even if you think you're not interested by becoming curious and asking the curious questions, you can answers that you would never have thought of.

And people like talking about themselves.

So if you ask them questions, they get to talk about themselves.

They'll think you are the best person ever.

They'll be had such a lovely conversation.

You're like, I didn't say anything.

But it softened.

It really does soften it.

And then next time you meet, there's a smile, it's an easier opening.

And then it starts.

Yeah, and then it starts to open up, which is.

Which is really wonderful.

And.

Yeah, no, the being curious.

The phrase I always have is that everybody has a story.

Everybody has a story.

And it's just a case of.

Yeah, just asking.

Asking the questions.

Just asking the questions.

Yeah.

Everybody thinking, this person has lots of stories, to be honest.

And it's kind of your job is to tease out one of them or make them just be open enough that they want to share.

You learn new things and then you become more curious when people say, they go, I did such and such.

And like, really?

I've never done that.

What's that?

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, the one thing I have come across and I remember talking, I've spoken to a couple of people in the Civil Service, and I said, oh, so work in the Civil service.

Which department?

Cabinet Office.

What do you do in the Cabinet Office?

Things that are very important to the Cabinet Office.

Like, what are you doing?

And this is me just asking the question.

And it's quite clear they're doing some rather secretive, specialist things for The Cabinet Office.

And yeah, that shuts down quickly.

So you move on back to the weather.

You're like, okay, I've been a bit too specific here.

Let's go weather, let's go weather again.

And holidays, it's.

Yeah, you know, yeah, holidays are a good one.

Now I've got a question.

So this is a really interesting, I suppose, pain point that mothers only discover once they have their babies or even maybe with their first babies.

They've had, you know, the antenatal classes, they've had a group that they could see regularly.

But then people go back to work and then they have another baby and that group isn't there anymore and there's a real sort of loneliness there.

How do we let people know that?

They've got to.

Just thinking for first time mums, for example, to say you need to work on creating that community around you because you will be lonely.

I don't know.

Because it's not until you're in it that you realize it's a, it's a real thing.

There's almost this.

Well, of course I've got my friends here, everybody will be there.

Without realizing that was kind of mum life, which is whatever time in the morning till whatever and then shifts in the middle of the night to work life.

How do we, I don't know, how can we help?

Can we even help?

Or is it a case of you've got to walk through it?

It's interesting.

My sister in law, I'm staying with my brother at the minute, my sister in law is a midwife, might just chat later and think and say, you know, what do you do to help mums prepare for that?

Because they will have an easier journey if they've got that community around them.

But I think the understanding that life is fluid and life changes helps us because if we've got mindset, even that, oh, I've got my group or I know I need a group and like you said, then they start to move on because that's life.

Yeah.

By being aware of it, you can start to see it.

And again it's about preempting really because things harder once you're in it.

So if you notice one friend starts, you know, one of the group starts talking about going back to work.

This is your clue.

I need to start pulling in and making other friends while I've still got that lovely community and support.

But it's just about awareness, isn't it?

Yeah.

Is this part of what you do when you're a midwife?

Are you helping the mum or is it just focusing more on the baby?

Yeah, that would be a really interesting question, because I know I've spoken to a couple of midwives in the past, particularly when it came to third, fourth and fifth baby.

And you.

You.

You can be a bit more sort of honest and frank and they have opinions and observations from life experience and what they've seen, but it's rare that they feel they can share it with.

They could prepare and talk to these mums.

It's a really.

Yeah, we've kind of lost that.

Not quite the village elder, but that sort of matriarch figure.

Our communities are very, very different these days and it's kind of a sad thing and obviously lots of ways that we've lost the village community.

It's not to say we can't do it, it's just not.

It's just not ready made for us anymore.

No.

Put the effort in now.

Yeah, we do, we do.

It's.

Yeah.

Harder work on top of everything.

On top of everything else.

So easier in some ways.

Because, you know, you couldn't pick back then.

You were in the village, you had all your family around.

You might not want some of them around you.

Especially, you know, mums and mums in laws, as a lot of the people that are listening know.

Yes.

Are not people we want around because they know what they.

They just.

Yeah.

Interfering, I think.

No, this is true.

So.

Yeah.

It's sixes and sevens, isn't it?

So.

No, it's true, it's true.

Yeah.

We live in very interesting times.

And I suppose for any of the mums who are kind of.

Who'll be listening to this as well, suppose what I would encourage is actually those mums to start looking on the school playground or when you're out and walking and you're kind of seeing a regular mum or a lady with a small baby or something that you kind of make that effort to go over and say, you know, you're doing.

This is beautiful.

You.

This is great.

I was actually at a.

We were at a National Trust property recently and there was a lady who had twins and they were at the just starting to walk stage.

They might die at any moment stage.

And this poor lady was going, david.

And then Daniel, Daniel.

And then.

And they were getting split like this.

I was looking at him thinking, you're amazing, you're amazing.

I struggled to do that with one child and you've got the tooth.

Incredible.

And I went up and I just said, this is.

You have no idea how brilliant you are.

And she said, these are my first.

I know.

No difference.

And I said, when you have more this, they're going to be a walk in the park.

It really will.

So, yes, I suppose to also to ask the mums to kind of actively keep their eyes peeled as well and encourage and talk to and invite, I wonder, as well.

As British people, we are quite reticent to invite and I've got friends from all over the continent and they go, you English people, you do not invite people over who do not have spontaneous parties and things.

And I think that's an interesting cultural element to it as well.

And also a social thing that we don't want to be.

We don't want to hear.

No, we don't want to be turned down.

Yeah, it takes a lot of bravery to say, you know, like if you.

I remember meeting somebody once and I now can't remember whether it was me or her, but one of us very quickly said, you know, should we exchange numbers?

Do you want to meet for a coffee or whatever?

Now they can say no.

That's okay.

Back to what you were saying earlier, it's okay to say no, but if you don't ask, you won't ever find out.

Ask and they might give you their number and they might never respond to you.

That's fine.

But you put there and times you do that, you mourn.

Yeses.

You're going to get.

Yeah, yeah, very true indeed.

Very true indeed.

So, okay, Vanessa, have you got any final thoughts, observations on this rather big topic of loneliness?

No.

I think I would just reiterate what you said earlier, Zoe, that it's normal, it's real, but we need to suffer and small steps really just start doing small steps to, you know, put yourself through it.

Yeah, yeah, very true.

Vanessa, this has been a delight.

Thank you for joining mumchat.

It was no longer mum musings, it was proper mum chat.

Hooray.

It was so lovely, Zoe, thank you.

An absolute joy.

And thank you.

Thank you to Mr. Zuckerberg for creating Facebook, otherwise we would never have met.

So he has brought something wonderful into the world.

There we go.

So, all right, bless you.

Thank you.

I'll pop this up in the Facebook group and I'll put the link to your website underneath so that more people can check that out as well.

So, bless, it's been a joy.

So, yes, enjoy the rest of your holiday in Wales and I'll send you massage.

I'll be in touch.

Okay, God bless.

Bye.

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